Game #201: Gisa and Geralf

Game #201:  Gisa and Geralf
Date: 2016-10-04
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland OR
Vs. Scion of the Ur-Dragon; Trostani, Selesnya’s Voice
Result: Neutral Win (kinda)

Gisa and Geralf, Magic, Eldritch MoonvsScion of the Ur-Dragon, Magic, Time SpiralTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, Magic, Return to Ravnica

The first game in week one of the “Super October Frightfest of Cereal Box Monsters.”

I kept a 3 land hand, played Crow of Dark Tidings on turn 3, Gisa and Geralf on turn 4, and Rooftop Storm on turn 5 (via a Temple of the False God) after having Buried Alived somehow.  Trostani cast a Nevinyrral’s disk, while I had a board that included Undead Warchief, Diregraf Captain, and a bunch of other Zombies. He popped the disk the turn after I cast Diabolic tutor to find Zombie Apocalypse.   Trostani was having mana troubles and scooped, and when I attacked Scion with my zombie hoard, he just figured it was the end for him and didn’t block.

About the Deck

The deck is mostly about loading the graveyard with zombies, and then being able to cast the zombies via Gisa and Geralf.  If I were a rich man, there’d be more Zombie lords.  Ashes of the Fallen is in there to get back just Gisa, just Geralf, Liliana and Nighthowler.

Game #195: Godo, Bandit Warlord

Game #195: Godo, Bandit Warlord (try 2, and try 3)
Date: 2016-04-05 (2016-03-22)
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland OR
Vs. Kemba, Kha Regent; Doran the Siege Tower  (Derevi, Radha, Mimeoplasm)
Result: Fun Win (Unfun early scoop)

Godo, Bandit Warlord, Magic, Champions of KamigawavsKemba, Kha Regent, Magic, Scars of MirrodinDoran, the Siege Tower, Magic, Lorwyn

After forgetting to record my first run-through of Godo, I tried again at a later date for an official game.  I bowed out of  the second game early (like turn 2) because a Mimeoplasm player played the artifact that forces mill for untapping immediately (and I’ve never had fun against early crippling mill like that).  Try 3 shaped up to be a game where people actually got to play instead of not being able to cast anything.

I kept a 2 land hand, but played a turn two Sword of the Animist and a turn 3 Tenza and was able to get a creature out to equip the Sword to.  Doran came out on turn 3 but was Path to Exiled. Kemba played several cheap equipment but then got Path to Exiled as well.  Ajani Mentor of Heroes came on board, and managed to Ultimate Doran up to 117 life.

I played Godo and found Trailblazer’s Boots and also had Swiftfoot Boots.  Godo got killed though.  Doran played a Mirari’s wake, but I think I copied a Qasali Pridemage somehow and killed the Wake.  At some point Ajani gets O-Ringed. Doran plays a Torpor Orb (I hate that!). Doran also has, somehow, an 8/9 Birds of Paradise.

I play Kumano, Master Yamabushi and give him Blinding Powder, Tenza and the Swiftfoot Boots, but Crux of Fate wipes the board.  I’m able to re-cast Godo and I get to Swing with Tenza, Swiftoot Boots, and clearly something else (it’s been awhile since this game was played) as I’m able to kill off Kemba (Doran having previously died, I believe) with the second attack.

About the Deck

Godo and equipment and equipment supporters. The goal is to use Blade of Selves.

Game #191: Ayli, the Eternal Pilgrim

Game #191: Ayli, the Eternal Pilgrim
Date: 2016-03-01
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland OR
Vs. Mizzix of the Izmagnus; Horde of Notions; Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Result: Mostly fun Win.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Magic, Oath of the GatewatchvsMizzix of the Izmagnus (Oversized), Magic, Oversize CardsHorde of Notions, Magic, LorwynIsamaru, Hound of Konda, Magic, Champions of Kamigawa

I kept a 4 land hand, all of which entered the Battlefield Tapped (my Tainted field tapped for colorless the bulk of the game). I played Ayli on turn 3 and Sigil of the new Dawn on turn 4. Isamaru came out early and had an Umezawa’s Jitte, which spent most of the game on a flying double striker and got as high as 15 counters on it. Mizzix was ramping and Horde of Notions was color fixiing. I didn’t play another spell until turn 8, when my Rhox Faithmender got countered by Mizzix. I responded by Ashes to Ashes-ing Mizzix and Melek out of spite. I was down to 23 life, having been hit for 6 by the doublestriking Jitte-holder a few times.

Mizzix stole Isamaru. On turn 9 I cast Serra Avatar. I looked around to make sure it was good, and went to sacrifice it to Ayli when Mizzix said he was killing Ayli in response to the casting of of the Avatar. I rarely argue about timing and stuff, and I’m usually pretty chill about Takesies Backsies (though I did turn down the opportunity to take one earlier in the game), so Ayli died, but not before I shuffled my Avatar and went back up to 46. On turn 10 I played a Vizkopa Guildmage and a Nomad’s Assembly for 7. I was setting up to win via a Congregate/Guildmage next turn, but Isamaru cast rout, and my Assembly failed on the next turn. Mizzix was able to exile the Jitte, though Isamaru gained 24 life from it. Turn 11 I cast a Whip of Erebos and a Disciple of Griselbrand, and then someone Cyclonic rifted. Turn 12 I played down my Whip, Sigil and Disciple. Mizzix had 5 Bringers of the Red Dawn thanks to Horde of Notions and a Rite of Replication.

After a Windfall, I amazingly got my Serra Avatar back in hand, though I lost some good stuff. I replayed Ayli and started doubling my life (using Sigil of the New Dawn to beat Avatar’s shuffle trigger). Mizzix was doing Shenanigans with his army of bringers (and thankfully Ayli can’t sacrifice herself to herself). A Curse of the Swine was aimed at Horde of Notions board and followed up with a Contagion engine that gave Swine Flu to all of the pigs.

I doubled and redoubled up to 264, patiently waiting to get to 15 mana. I was amazed that there was nothing stopping me. I hit 15 mana on turn 15 which was enough to cast the Avatar, Whip in the Guildmage, activate it and sacrifice the Avatar to Ayli, putting me up to 528 and everyone else down by 264. In a game where everyone was playing really good stuff, and I only cast 3 spells in the first 8 turns, it was a fun surprise to win.

About the Deck: This deck was in the works as soon as I reconfigured my Vish-Kal deck to scavenge cards for a Karlov deck. Since that one was about incremental life gain, I had many big-gain cards left over. Ayli was announced, and I knew what I needed to do.

This one has a bunch of life-doublers, and the goal is to get a big life total and use it for value or for winning. As it was being built, I realized that it needed some token creatures to make use of Ayli’s second ability, so I rethought it a little bit.  It plays Boonweaver Giant and 2 combo auras (Shade’s Form and the other one), because I love Boonweaver.  It initially had a B/W allies theme to it, but there wasn’t room for that, and in building this one the rest of the cards that didn’t get used spilled over into a Selenia, Dark Angel deck that is nearly complete.


Game #189: Commander Eesha

Game #189: Commander Eesha
Date: 2016-02-02
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland OR
vs. Melek; Derevi; ZoZu the Punisher
Result: Fun Win

Commander Eesha, Magic, JudgmentvsMelek, Izzet Paragon, Magic, Dragon's MazeDerevi, Empyrial Tactician, Magic, Commander 2013Zo-Zu the Punisher, Magic, Champions of Kamigawa

Because Mono-White is really fun to play (and haters think it’s the worst), I had to build a second Mono-white deck as I was building Mikaeus (Game #188) because I had so many other possible Generals.  I started this game with a Plains and a Tormod’s crypt. I’d never played against a ZoZu deck before and was a bit scared.  Zozu hit early with a Meekstone as back-up, but Melek Pongified ZoZu.  Derevi played a Soulcatcher’s Aerie (which I was quite happy to see).

I played Eesha on turn 4 and played an Opal Palace. Zozu played a Manabarbs.  I played a Delyaing Shield to offset some of the Zozu damage, and was happy that Derevi Cyclonic Rifted everything a way. I recast Eesha, Zozu played Koth and a Caged Sun and Manabarbs and a Basilisk Collar and it was looking scary.  I know I buffed Eesha and set up some defenses for myself (Orbs of Warding).  I was at low life thanks to Derevi’s for-style-points-only Ebony Owl Netsuke.  I used a Riot Control to stay alive and gain some life.  Zozu played a Kozilek. I attacked to leave Zozu at 1, forcing Derevi to make the kill (and not attack me).  After that I was able to get BloodClock/Delaying Shield online, and with Melek and Zozu dead, Derevi conceded so that another game could start.

I think the next game was the Godo game  I forgot to  record properly.  This is also one of the few instances of me having Back-to-back victories (and with mono-white decks to boot!)

About the Deck:  This is my only “Commander” deck, the rest are EDH decks.  Eesha is a winner on many levels: she’s a Bird and a Soldier, she’s unblockable, she’s from Judgment (one of my favorite sets) and she’s painted by Rebecca Guay.  I didn’t have a mono-white “creature-less” deck, and I had a lot of good white auras around from building other decks.  Goals for the deck include getting Eesha vigilance and maybe an Entangler.

Game #188: Mikaeus the Lunarch

Game #188: Mikaeus the Lunarch
Date: 2016-02-02
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland OR
vs. Molimo, Maro Sorcerer; Tasigur the Golden Fang
Result: Fun Win


Mikaeus, the Lunarch, Magic, From the Vault: Legendsvs Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Magic, Fate ReforgedMolimo, Maro-Sorcerer, Magic, Invasion

I started out with lands and an Angelic Renewal, Molimo had a Burnished Hart and Tasigur played a Rakshasa Death Dealer.  I played Mikaeus on turn 3, and an Emeria Angel on turn 5 with 2 land fall triggers.  Molimo continued to ramp and played a Doubling Cube which Tasigur killed with Vraska the Unseen.  I played a Caged Sun on turn 6 and swung to kill Vraska and knock a Kiora down to 6.

On turn 7 Molimo attacked as a 10/10 with deathtouch via Nylea’s Bow.  I played an Aegis Angel (protecting my Caged Sun) and a Custodi SoulBinders as an 11/11.  The following turn I played Sandstone Oracle, and then played the keystone card of the deck, Gleam of Authority, on Mikaeus. At this point there were at least 20 other counters in play, and mikaeus could tap to net 4-5 more counters each turn.  I swung at Molimo with a Charioted up Mikaeus getting through for 20.  Molimo responded with a World Spine Wurm.  Tasigur Sorin-ed me down to 10 and used to Kiora to make Mikeaus do no damage. I was still able to swing with a sizeable crew of birds and angels though, and was able to hang on to win.

About the Deck.  I was feeling like building a plains-heavy mono white deck to make use of Kor Cartographer and the new Angel that reanimates creatures on plains-fall.  Mikeaus seemed like a good general for a white ramp deck. I like to call Chariot of Victory the Pope-mobile.  Gleam of Authority is a great card in this deck.  There are a few extra sac-engines to help fuel the Kor Cartographer shenanigans.

Game #185: Mizzix of the Izmagnus

Game #185: Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Date: 2016-01-05
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland, OR
vs.: Melek; Vorosh; Ghave;
Result: Fun Win?!

Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Magic, Commander 2015vsMelek, Izzet Paragon, Magic, Dragon's MazeVorosh, the Hunter, Magic, Planar ChaosGhave, Guru of Spores, Magic, Commander

I wanted to play my Mizzix deck, so the Mizzix player from the previous game switched to his alternate commander, Melek, Izzet Paragon. I kept a 2 land hand, using Teramorphic expanse to grab an Island to go with my mountain, and played a Quest for the Goblin Lord on turn 2.

Ghave tutored for an Oracle of Muldaya, Vorosh played an early sword of the animist.  I missed my turn 3 land drop, but played a Goblin Recruiter. I missed turn 4 land drop and played an Obstinate Familiar.  Ghave was getting crazy with Sylvan Library, Kitchen Finks, Cathar’s Crusade and a ton of Ramp, into an Avenger of Zendikar followed by a Boundless Realms for more than 10. I am still at 2 lands.  Melek pulls out a Time Stop to keep us alive, and uses a Blasphemous Act to wipe things clean.  Vorosh continually pounded on Ghave, gaining counters.

By about turn 8 or 9 I’m able to draw a 3rd land and start casting things, and I draw a few more mountains after that.  Melek tries to Epic Experiment for 11 but it gets countered. Ghave blows a Pernicious Deed and plays an Avenger of Zendikar with 22 lands on the board (I ahve about 5 lands by this point), but Ghave does to a big Vorosh swing (or a Melek tricks). I play a Shared Animosity and an Empty the Warrens for 4 goblins and swing at Vorosh, but I get Spider-fogged.  Vorosh has a ton of Creakwood Liegesf due to a kicked Rite of Replication, but I use the Blasphemous act I’ve been holding since Melek played his (so I didn’t have to), and Melek Scours a 19/19 Vorosh from existence.

I had set up my hand with a Goblin Recruiter followed by Distant Melody.  I played Goblin Warchief, Krenko, Mob Boss and a Siege Gang Commander. I tap Krenko to have 15 goblins that all have haste, and swing with enough (thanks to the Quest and the Shared Animosity) to win.

This was a game where at one point someone had 10x as many lands as I did. There’s no way I should have won this game, but somehow I did. At one point I almost scooped. Good thing I hung around.

About the Deck: When I first saw Mizzix, I was not excited. 1. She was not a UR Artifacts general, and 2. She was going to fuel lots of degenerate storm or other combo decks.   I couldn’t figure out an angle to make her fun, until I realized: “hey, she’s a Goblin!”  Thus I built a Goblin Tribal deck.

Her ability does come into play, making things like Haze of Rage (which, aside from Empty the Warrens, is the only Storm spell I play), or Buyback spells cheaper.  This is also a deck with a “sub-commander,” Miss Zada the Hedron Grinder, who is also super fun. Thankfully goblins have some decent ability to tutor for themselves, so it’s easy to pull her up as well, and then start targeting her to buff my whole team of goblin tokens. Thinkgs like Crimson Wisps become massive draw spells, and Seething Anger gets extra crazy. There are a few X spells, but it really only needs 3-4 experience counters to get ridiculous value.


Game #179: Omnath, Locus of Rage

Game #179: Omnath, Locus of Rage
Date: 2015-11-24
Location: Red Castle Games, Portland, OR
vs.: Ruhan of the Fomori; Thassa, God of the Sea; Horde of Notions
Result: Fun Win

Omnath, Locus of Rage, Magic, Battle for ZendikarvsRuhan of the Fomori, Magic, CommanderThassa, God of the Sea, Magic, TherosHorde of Notions, Magic, Lorwyn

It has been almost a month since I’ve gotten to play EDH, and I had 5 new decks to try tonight, and plenty of time to play them.

I had a 4 land hand to start, so I was happy. I led off with an Evolutionary Leap (good card!) followed up with a Young Pyromancer (who didn’t do all that much, but lived the whole game!).  Thassa led off with original Jace and Legendary Jace.  Horde was mana screwed (he accidentally kept a 3-land hand…. all were bounce lands).  Ruhan built up some artifact Mana, which Thassa kept tapped down via Tamiyo.

My 4th turn was Impact Tremors, which I used to keep planeswalkers in check.  Thassa ramped into a Lorthos, which Ruhan tried to Swords to Plowshares. Thassa Comandeered that Swords to my Nissa Legend (who was about to transform!), so I Smelted his Sol Ring to slow down the roll of Lorthos’ tide.  Horde of Notions hit the board, and then that player cast a Conflux getting ALL 5 of the “experience counter” legends from C15 (which was awesome). He also played Ashes of the Fallen set to Elemental, and had a Bringer of the Red Dawn.  I had also played Cosi’s Ravager, and played Omnath on Turn 8.

Thassa cast Rite of Replication on my Pyromancer. I set Ruhan to 1 life via a pretty smashy attack (As I had built up a decent number of elemental tokens) and left Lorthos to finish him.  Horde tried some Palinchron tricks.  Thassa got smashed to a low life total by Horde, and I had to be careful to keep Thassa alive a bit longer to draw attacks from Horde. Thassa fought back with a Future Sight and his own Copied Palinchron.

On my turn I played a creature, which did enough damage to kill Thassa, and swung with basically my entire team.  Since they were almost all Elementals, anything that died from being blocked did 3 damage and I had enough mana available to sacrifice the rest to Evolutionary Leap to bolt my way to a victory in a very fun, very close game.

I’ve played games with all of these guys before, and have enjoyed most of those games. It’s a bigger store than I’m used to, but slowly I’m starting to figure it out.

About the Deck:  Omnath was my clear favorite of the new legends in Return to Zendikar (or whatever it’s called).  I already have a few “Lands” decks (Angus MacKenzie, Titania, Borborygmos), so I went a bit more with Omnath’s second ability and made this deck not just Ramp/Landfall, but also strongly Elemental Token/Tribal.  I think it’s a pretty good deck, and also a “fair” one.


Game #162: Sakasilazavumgarima (Dragonlord Silumgar)

Game #162: Sakasilazavumgarima (Dragonlord Silumgar)
Date: 2015-04-01
Location: The Family Game Store
Vs. GrimGrin; Daretti, Scrap Savant
Result: Neutral Win?

Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Magic, GatecrashvsGrimgrin, Corpse-Born, Magic, InnistradDaretti, Scrap Savant, Magic, Commander 2014

My plan for this April Fools Day was to play this deck (that’s not all that foolish, just fun). I played the whole night with the same two guys (from the Exava game).  I had many lands in my opening hand, and a Cemetary Puca (which died to a Fleshbag Marauder). Daretti started building up some artifacts – mostly Myr, because that’s how he rolls, but my Master Thief stole a Pristine Talisman.

Grimgrin countered one of Daretti’s creatures and also (thankfully) destroyed a Steel Overseer. Silumgar came into play and stole a Diregraf Ghoul.  The game slogged along, (for 6 consecutive turns I attacked GrimGrin with his Ghoul, and Daretti with Silumgar, putting him in range for a commander damage kill).  I had also Taken Possession of Daretti’s Unwinding Clock, so I was gaining lots of life tapping the Talisman for mana.

I’m pretty sure I ended up winning this one, though I think we ran out of time.


About the Deck ( is pretty close to what it is now)

This is the Silumgar version of SakaSiLazavumgarima.  It runs 25 blue cards that are all about Stealing stuff and 25  Black or Gold/Hybrid UB cards that are all about Stealing or copying stuff, and a package of 12 artifacts/spot removal (like the Monkey Maker and Curse of Swine).   The idea for the deck came from an old (circa 2002) Extended deck my friend and I made with a fully Transformative Sideboard (it started out as a combo deck, but you’d board’ 15 and make it a Counter Sliver deck, and you could board the combo back in in game three and play it AND counter silver).

The deck Originally was my Thada Adel deck, but I took out the merfolk to make a Tiny Leaders deck. I started rebuilding it as Sakashima, but partway through also got the bug to make a Lazav deck. They were fighting eachother for cards, so I thought “why not just make the decks share?”   When Silumgar was spoiled, I realized it had to be a Tripartite General deck.     Sakashima is the Blue Copy and Blue Steal packages, Lazav is Blue Copy and Black/Gold steal/copy pagage, Silumgar is Black/Gold and the Blue Steal package.

Game #160: Sakasilazavumgarima (Sakashima the Impostor)

Game #160: Sakasilazavumgarima (Sakashima the Impostor)
Date: 2015-04-01
Location: The Family Game Store
Vs. GrimGrin; Karona(Dragons)
Result: Fun Win

Sakashima the Impostor, Magic, Saviors of KamigawavsKarona, False God, Magic, ScourgeGrimgrin, Corpse-Born, Magic, Innistrad

My plan for this April Fools Day was to play this deck (that’s not all that foolish, just fun). I played the whole night with the same two guys (from the Exava game). I had a decent starting hand with two lands and an Opal Palace.  Grimgrin started with a Grave Caller, and my first move was to copy Birds of Paradise from Karona using a Phantasmal Image.

Karona fetched one of the new Dragon pumping lands, and also played a Quicksilver Amulet. I used Acquire to get a Gilded Lotus and then cast Sakashima (as a Birds of Paradise!) and an Assault Suit.  Karona found a quite deadly Scourge of Valkas (that made me salivate with envy). I copied it with a Vesuvan Doppleganger, but mine got killed.  Karona cast Dragonstorm for 2, but Grimgrin countered one of the copies, and Karona ONLY got to get Dragon Broodmother.  I Cursed it to Swine-dom, but only killed the Scourge of Valkas (so that, next turn, I could Body Double it… I really wanted that Scourge of Valkas!).

I put Assault Suit on the Dragon so it could beat on people.   Then when my turn came around I Rite of Replicationed my Scourge. We did the math wrong, and thought I only had 30 damage to distribute, so I killed GrimGrin.  Karona cast a Hoardsmelter Dragon and ate the Gilded Lotus, but then on my turn we realized, wait.  I really had many more damages to distribute, and that he should’ve been dead a turn ago.

I was just pumped I got to Rite the Scourge, which was one of the plays I was hoping to some day make with this deck. Nice for it to happen in game 1.

About the Deck (  is pretty close to what it is now)

This is the Sakashima version of SakaSiLazavumgarima.  It runs 25 cards that are all about Copying stuff and 25 cards that are all about Stealing stuff, and a package of 12 artifacts/spot removal (like the Monkey Maker and Curse of Swine).   The idea for the deck came from an old (circa 2002) Extended deck my friend and I made with a fully Transformative Sideboard (it started out as a combo deck, but you’d board’ 15 and make it a Counter Sliver deck, and you could board the combo back in in game three and play it AND counter silver).

The deck Originally was my Thada Adel deck, but I took out the merfolk to make a Tiny Leaders deck. I started rebuilding it as Sakashima, but partway through also got the bug to make a Lazav deck. They were fighting eachother for cards, so I thought “why not just make the decks share?”   When Silumgar was spoiled, I realized it had to be a Tripartite General deck.     Sakashima is the Blue Copy and Blue Steal packages, Lazav is Blue Copy and Black/Gold steal/copy pagage, Silumgar is Black/Gold and the Blue Steal package.

Game #157: Yasova Dragonclaw (A)

Game #157:  Yasova Dragonclaw (A)
Date: 2015-03-25
Location: Family Game Store
Vs.: GrimGrin; Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Result: Fun Win

Yasova Dragonclaw, Magic, Prerelease CardsvsGrimgrin, Corpse-Born, Magic, InnistradSidisi, Brood Tyrant, Magic, Khans of Tarkir

I switched tables after being the first one out in my previous game. The first land I drew was the only Forest (Snow-Covered) in the entire deck. I played Yasova on turn 3. Sidisi had an Amulet of Vigor. I stole something with Yasova, but then GrimGrin’s Fleshbag Marauder killed her. I drew a LOT of lands this game.

Sidisi came out and also played a Magus of the Bazaar. I played a Rune-chanter’s pieke and Grimgrin had a Nether Traitor. I stole Sidisi, but didn’t attack and just Fling-ed it back. I also grabbed a Solemn Simulacrum which died (and I drew a Land). Yasova sat around with nothignt to steal (and I had a bunch of Threatens in hand). Grimgrin got out a Rooftop Storm and a Gisa and convereted GG into 7 zombies. At some point I also pongified a Grimgrin. I was also stuck stealing Magus of the Bazaar to try to draw into non-lands (and put instants in my graveyard for the pike).

Grimgrin got to live the dream of creating a big 8/8 zombie with Geralf (eating my Nucklavee) and turning it into 8 zombies with Gisa. Wonder Twin Powers Activate! Grimgrin hit me pretty hard with an attack. I cast Mob Rule for 3CMC and under (I had considered doing it for 4+ to get Grimgrin), and in response Sidisi created a ton of zombies. Grimgrin sacced all of his, but I had 11 zombies plus my general and Grimgrin was at 22. I swung for the kill and then cast a Relentless Assault to get the win.

Yasova was cast 3 times, Sidisi 3, Grimgrin 2

About the Deck (Tapped Out someday)
This is the “Non-Green” Yasova. Thanks to the brilliance of the FRF legends’ design, you can bascially play a UR deck with her. The only cards in the deck that require Green Mana are Yasova and Temur Ascendancy. There’s one forest in the deck, but enough mana fixing that it’s not hard to have the G needed to cast the general. Hybrid cards are a big part of the deck (though I didn’t have Biomantic Mastery in the deck yet). The plan is to beef up Yasova for optimal stealing, and also play other steal-stuff cards that UR likes. Red is mostly the stealing color and Blue is mostly for support.